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April 10, 2008

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josh roberts

wow - tough one! here's an interesting video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LxZKJSNVgqM
It's about 9 minutes. Beware - Dr. Bob is pompous and extremely confident in his views, but he does present a valid argument.

Andy

Yep. In one sense, before any of us put our faith in Christ, God hated us (see Romans 9:13, Ephesians 2:3), with a condemning hate (after all, He does send people to Hell). And yet, God still has a universal love for all people (see John 3:16, or the way in which God blessed Esau, even though He could say "Esau I hated").

I am convinced that in the complexities of God's emotions, it is possible for Him to hate and love the same person, at the same time. Romans 5:8--"But God demonstrates His own LOVE of us in this, that while we were STILL sinners, Christ died for us".

But on the cross, the wrath of God was satisfied, so that for all born-again believers, God is 100% for us, 100% of the time.

http://allthingschurchplanting.blogspot.com/

Read Scott

I feel like it's pretty clear that God hates sinners as individuals before they're redeemed, but that His love is an overarching love for humanity. While Christ's death is efficient to save individuals, its purpose was to redeem humanity and history is working toward that conclusion at His return in the future.

Read Scott

Wow, my last comment was incomplete. Here's the back-story.

God isn't driven by emotions in the way we are as fallen humans. God's "hatred" is not an emotional hatred. It's an act (or planned act) of hatred: sending people to hell. This action isn't motivated by emotion, but by God's holiness. His holiness demands that hateful actions take place as a result of sin.

This is all in the same vein with God's love. His love is not an emotion. It's an action. In the OT, it was the provision of a covenant to be in a relationship with Him. In the NT, it's the most loving action ever; sacrificing His son.

jason salamun

Good points so far. I would also add that there's something to be said for God's common grace. The fact that everyone receives some undeserved blessings from God. For example, children are a blessing from God yet unbelievers receive it. Does that show a universal love?

God is love BUT I'm not saying God doesn't hate. Scripture clearly teaches that he does and that his wrath is real.

We're all afflicted with sin- making us sinners- from birth. We have his wrath on us until we are saved. Right?

God is not one-sided. Somehow in the midst of his love, there is hate. Somehow in the middle of his will, is the sin of humanity.

This is why I have to believe in a big, sovereign God and trust that his thoughts and ways are higher than mine. Because stuff like this are difficult for my mere mind to fully comprehend.

God's love is so vast and beyond our comprehension. So is his hate.

Jonathan Herron

I love what Augustine wrote about this back in the day - Sin isn't something we DO, sin is what we ARE.

bgilliam

This is what I think about Psalm 5:5
He prays for justice (vv. 4-6,9-10). Many would prefer to ignore the words, "you [God] hate all evildoers" (v. 4), as well as David's plea for God to "make them bear their guilt" and that God "let them fall by their own counsels" and that they be "cast out" "because of the abundance of their transgressions" (v. 10). For us, "hate" is an evil desire for personal revenge that is the fruit of malice, vindictiveness, spite, bitterness, resentment, jealousy, or self-centeredness. For God, "hate" is a righteous opposition to anything that is an affront to holiness. It is God's holy displeasure for sins committed and a holy determination to punish. Notice also that although David calls for divine justice, he does not presume to stand in God's presence because of personal merit. He acknowledges that he is equally deserving of divine wrath and that it is only God's "steadfast love" (v. 7) that accounts for his salvation.

We have to understand verses like Psalm 5:5 in the context, it’s reflecting that God hates that sin and what sin has made of that individual. Nowhere in the Bible is God's anger found to be directed against some obscure and intangible concept of wrong doing. Rather, the Scriptures teach that God hates sin and is angry with those committing sin. "Thou dost hate all who do iniquity" (Psalm 5:5). In the opening chapters of the epistle to the Romans Paul specifies in unmistakable terms that the sinner himself, because of his offences, abides under the wrath of a holy God. Therefore, I would say that God hates sin, loves the sinner, and is angry with the sinner. I really like Jonathan Edwards' sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

Cool man, great question.

Hmmm

Here are the words of Edwards... It seems like he is saying that God hates the sinner rather than simply having a hate for the sin.
JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

jay hardwick

very thoughtful answers by all.

this is one of those questions/issues that is almost impossible to find full clarity. but when you bump into verses/texts where it's right there in front of you, you have to figure out a way to address it.

Eph. 2:1-10 sums it up best for me...we are dead in our sin and objects of wrath as a result. but motivated by love and compassion, God made a way for us to be made alive in Christ. we didn't earn it and cannot claim it as our own. it's the gift of God. if we choose to reject His gift, then we reject His grace and accept His wrath.

hard to wrestle this to the ground in a blog post and comments. but, good discussion and good points made by all. thanks for being bold enough to share.

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