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November 07, 2006


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michael white


Great post! Quick question from a church planter's perspective. Do you all have your 'system' on paper (i.e., a pdf file) for others to look at?

Thanks again for the great blogging. You help those of us in the trenches a great deal!


Jay Hardwick


The basic "system" of the North Point model is summarized in the Foyer to Kitchen presentation. You can purchase it from the North Point store at www.northpointstore.com. That's the best I can do for a concise presentation of our basic operating system.

Thanks for the encouragement. It's good to know that other people who are "in the trenches" are connecting with our journey.

Keep running hard,


Good post, Jay. I attend a traditional church in the Greer area and see these issues all the time.

(new reader)



I agree that systems do drive a good bit of behavior. However, I am bothered by one of Stanley's premises:

"And, systems trump teaching. You can pray, preach, have faith, commit, etc. all you want and if you neglect the systems, your church will never change."

Is Stanley claiming that a church's structure (or system) cannot even be penetrated by the Word of God which never returns void? I'm a big believer in preaching and teaching through the Word of God because it is "given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, for correction, and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Stanley's comment.

Jay Hardwick


I think you may be reading more into the statement than is there. My interpretation of Andy's point is that you have to do both - teach truth and inspect systems. I can certainly say that Andy would never undermine the authority or power of scripture.

I can also say from experience that I worked under a powerful expositor for 2 years. His dedication to teaching the Word and leading in a biblical manner was second to none. Yet the attempts our leadership team made to transition the church were futile at best. There was a culture of inward-focus and "church is about me" that was not being broken.

My experience would certainly lead me to agree with Andy's statement and overall point in this talk.

Charlie Wallace


Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry if I misunderstood Andy's statement. I always feel that precision in conversation is of the utmost importance, so that is why I asked my question.

You said about your former church, "There was a culture of inward-focus and "church is about me" that was not being broken."

Systems may have been a problem but the real problem seems like there were a lot of sinful, carnal, and downright selfish people at the church. I can't imagine how hard that was to try to work with.

If there is a system that can change people's sinful hearts, I'd like to know what it is!

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